Our topic for this thread is "What is the Gospel?".
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This is a blog established to foster conversations about spiritual topics that are intended to deepen and clairify our understanding of God and foster intentional spiritual formation. Blog posts will contain questions intended to spark spirited, yet respectful, converstation. The ancient rabbis had a tradition of gathering together to discuss and debate the scriptures. The purpose was to expand and deepen thier understanding of those scriptures. This is a 21 century version of that.
45 comments:
I used to think that the Gospel was a genaric statement about Jesus and the way that He keeps us from going to hell because of our sins. But now I veiw the gospel as a very personal story about the way that Jesus has taken me from a useless peice of flesh to a redeemed brother. In that story I am used for His purposes and for the advancement of His kingdom that is here and that is to come. Its my story of salvation and its God tool in the lives of poeple that I come in contact with.
Paul all through the letters to the Romans and Corinthians talks about the gosple being his gosple. He talks about his unwortheiness in recieving the gosple and how he brought them this story as a testamony of the relationship that Jesus has with him. Jesus says that in the end this relationship will bring you much harm and many will leave the faith or I guess quit believing. The gosple is my hope, my joy, its my life and ultimatly its all that I have, of any value, to offer people around me.
The word we see in our NT translations as Gospel is Euaggelion (when used as a noun) and Euaggelizo when used to refer to the proclamation of the Gospel. Euaggelion means basically “good tidings” or “good news”. So the question “What is the Gospel?” is really a question about what is the “good news”? There are many varying answers to this question. The term “Gospel” encompasses a broad range of things that I believe can be synthesized into a fundamental principle. So, let first look at the various applications of the term Gospel.
In Luke 4:21 Jesus associated himself with Isaiah 61 “because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.”
In Matt 4:23, 9:35 & 24:14 Jesus refers to the “good news of the Kingdom”
In Mark 1:15 Jesus tells us the “the Kingdom of God is near” and that we should “repent and believe the good news”
So what exactly is the “good news”? In the simplest terms Jesus came to establish God's Kingdom. In Luke 9:2 Jesus sends His disciples out to “preach the Kingdom of God” and in verse 6 it says they “preached the Gospel”. In this passage it is clear that the Gospel and the Kingdom of God are directly linked. The Kingdom (Basileia – the domain of the king) of God is a realm where God and man once again live in the harmony that was initially experienced by Adam, Eve and God in the Garden of Eden. In the garden there was no death, no violence, nothing wore out, there were no weeds, rust, roaches, mold, nothing broke and everything working on perfect synchronization and harmony. Man worked but the work was a labor of love always rewarding and satisfying. The Jews use a word to describe this ideal state of being, Shalom.
The Kingdom of God is God's initial design for how He and mankind are to relate and Jesus is the one whose role it is to educate us about this Kingdom and encourage us to be a part of it. Jesus spoke of a new way of living that moves us from a path of selfishness and pride (death) to one of selflessness and humility (Shalom). This change of path from the old way of living to the new way of living is called repentance. One repents when he/she changes from the way of the flesh to the way of the spirit. After Jesus rose from the grave and met with the disciples he spoke about the Kingdom of God.
Upon a careful reading of all the Gospel accounts it is clear that Jesus was telling us of a new realm where we can change course and follow Jesus to a kingdom of Shalom. To seal the deal, and demonstrate His teachings Jesus gave His life up to pay the sin debt we inherited from Adam. He asks us to do the same (deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow Him). Since our sinful nature makes this impossible, He left us the Holy Spirit to guide us. The Kingdom of God is a realm where Shalom is the end game and the Spirit of Jesus leads us there if we will change (repent) from our sinful nature and embrace the life of Jesus. This is good news. There is a pathway to Shalom and it is the path of Jesus. He told us about it, demonstrated and then left a helper for us to find our way to it.
In I Corinthians 15:3-6 Paul says that the Gospel is “that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.” Some may say that my view of the Gospel does not line up with Paul's view. But I say that all views of the Gospel must line up with what Jesus says and I believe they do. Like I said at the beginning the “good news” covers a broad range of things. In this passage Paul points out that Jesus died and rose again. This is in no way in conflict with the ministry of Jesus but highlights the resurrection as a mark of authentication on Jesus' ministry. Without the resurrection nothing Jesus said or did (including death on the cross) would be meaningful. Many people claimed to be the messiah, but only Jesus had the resurrection. The resurrection is the stamp of authentication, not the package itself. The resurrection means we can trust that His teachings were from God and reliable to salvation.
In Galations 1:6-7 Paul said “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.” The main thrust of Galatians is that a group of believers reverted to a lifestyle of trying to obey the law as a pathway to Shalom, rather than following the leading of the Holy Spirit. Any “good news” that involves dependence on human effort alone as a pathway to Shalom is not good news because we just cannot do it.
When we receive the spirit of Christ our hope must be focused on that spirit to lead us into Shalom and back tp fellowship with God and each other. Our human effort is born out of a relationship with Jesus through the spirit. Our fruit and our obedience is sourced by the spirit of Christ. Anything else is not the Gospel Jesus spoke of.
In conclusion, the Gospel is the establishment of the Kingdom of God. It is good news because this world is eaten up with sin and darkness and the Kingdom of God holds the hope of Shalom, to return to the garden, to walk with God in the cool of the day. The good news is that we don't have to wait. If we accept the spirit of Christ, it will lead us through this Kingdom. The spirit will lead us to do things that promote Shalom. The spirit will guide us down the path of truth that will repair brokenness and advance healing and harmony. Someday the trumpet will blow and God will bring us fully into that finished work and we will again walk in the garden. But a true believer cannot bear to wait. Like someone who is far from home, we feel the need to surround ourselves with those things that remind us of home. In the same way, we here in the darkened world cannot resist the urge to make this temporary dwelling place look more like home.
Andy, I agree with you almost point by point. You said virtually everything I would have said and the upbeat is that I didn't have to.
However, you mentioned "shalom" several times. I believe I have a general understanding of the way you are using the word but at some point down the road, a good topic may be "What is the Essence and Nuance of Shalom?" Until then I'll content myself with trying to find some aspect of "the Gospel" that hasn't been covered yet. I look forward to reading everybody else's comments.
-trw
TRW I am not going to let you get away with that. The gospel is the pivot point. It's the drive gear. I believe you could spend 95% of your ministry time on this earth doing noting but talking about the good news of christ in your life and you couldn't contain the pile of crown waiting for you in the life after this one. Paul spends the 8th chapter of Romans droping the gosple on us after talking about the hoplessness of our condition in chapter 7.
I want to hear from all of us what the meaning of the gosple is in all of our lives. And I am not above throwing some people in head locks if I have to.
Where to start? This question could take along time to research thoroughly, so I thought I would throw out some thoughts of where I am at currently.
I have first looked at the question we have asked on this blog and did not know if the answer would not be to pick one of the gospel accounts, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. That should some it up. But as I searched just the word "gospel" I read scripture that made me re-think the way I thought understand it to be.
Like Tom, I grew up thinking that the gospel was Jesus dying on the cross as a sacrifice for my sin, and that is surely good news. Like most, going to heaven vs. hell was much more appealing.In my adult years wether scriptural or not, has become that in my pain, anxiety, and confusion of this world I find myself in, I find that the gospel to me is that I can have a Jesus that is here and now. I have found Jesus meets me where I am at with a peace that I cannot explain. Not parking places or blow out sales on the latest blue jeans. The gospel I share with others today is what I have experienced in my life.The Jesus I understand him to be and the reality he came to show us how to live.
As I read the bible I find that this gospel was different to whom it was being preached too. Mark was telling this story to the Roman world. Presenting Jesus as the Servant of the Lord. Matthew wrote to the Jews presenting Christ as King. Luke presents as Christ, Son of Man, and John spoke of the Deity of Christ.
In John chapter 9, Jesus heals a man that was born blind. In Luke chapter 6 there is a distinction between Gospel preaching and healing, but I think to this blind man who can now see this is GOOD NEWS. To be a citizen of an oppressive government(present kingdom for the hearer of the Gospel) and to hear of a new kingdom where there is no oppression this is GOOD NEWS. To be a leper or some kind of social outcast and to hear that you are loved,and that you have a place in this new kingdom, that is good news.
I think the fact that Jesus was God wrapped in flesh and dwelled among us is what the gospel is.I believe Jesus giving up his life for mankind's sin on the cross and rising from the grave is vitally important to what the gospel is.
I believe the yoke he left us to spread is part of the gospel.
In Matthew 28, Jesus tells the disciples to go and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you ALWAYS, to the very end of the age. I find it interesting that Jesus did not tell them, oh, by the way, don't forget the gospel.
I am sure I could be wrong along the way... Please question what I have said. It will help the conversation.
Great comments Steve. I like the emphasis on how the “Good News” can take many forms. The Gospel is peace, grace, healing, restoration, love, acceptance, long suffering, self denial and redemption (I'm sure I left something off the list). The cool thing about the gospel is that all of these things are totally dependent on the power of God, the grace of Jesus and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Notice that NONE of it is dependent on us. Also good news! When we embrace and accept the Gospel we cannot resist the urge (Holy Spirit) to express our faith in acts of service, not to earn Gods favor or salvation but as acts of genuine worship.
Tom, lighten up. This is a head lock free zone. The Gospel has got to be more than idle talk that leads to a pile of crowns in the end. Thomas A. Kempis wrote “there are many lovers of His crown but few lovers of His cross”. Its not about the crowns but about the cross. Jesus' death on the cross was the highest expression of the Gospel. He gave His life so we could be restored with God (good news). James spoke of a faith that is just talk. He said that such a faith will not save a man. Faith without works is dead (not good news) and not the Gospel. The Gospel must have expression in action, not just words.
Hey Chuck. You out there bro?
Hey Tom. Point well taken.
Anyway, my thoughts have been going along the path of Romans 1:16 where Paul makes a point of saying, "I am not ashamed of the gospel..."
Having grown up in church, I used to think it odd that Paul would choose the negative approach (I am not ashamed) to proclaim his unwavering allegiance to the gospel. In my mind—having grown up in church—it just seemed obvious that a believer wouldn’t be ashamed of the gospel. So why mention it? Furthermore, over the past 20+ years, much of my ministry has been to Christians—in a church or Bible study—or at least among people who had “some” understanding of the story of Christ. Under those circumstances it is easy to proclaim that to us who were…
“…once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.” Ephesians 2:11-13
Again I ask, why would I be ashamed to proclaim such good news? Well, I think I am now beginning to understand how there could be at least a little shame or embarrassment.
You see, I am now working with and among groups of people who are lost, aliens from the church, strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, without God and having absolutely no discernable desire to EVER have an understanding of the gospel of Christ regardless of whether it be to the Jews OR the rest of us.
Being a natural skeptic with an unexplainable yet unshakeable faith in the substitutionary work of Christ (which is the part of the gospel that personally affects me) I find it difficult to see how anybody could ever take serious the bare bones of the gospel which are stated in 1 Cor. 15:1-5,
1. Christ died for our sins
2. He was buried
3. He rose again
I mean really, if the Holy Spirit, through the word of God, hadn’t infused my heart with faith that I don’t naturally have, I’d be asking,
What proof is there that Christ’s death has any effect on my sin? For that matter, who is He to accuse me of being sinful? What do I care if he was buried and how do I know that he REALLY rose from the dead?
Sure, three times, Paul uses the fact that “scripture” said this would happen and then for good measure he adds that the 12 disciples and other also saw Jesus after his resurrection from the tomb--but in an internet world I can get a copy of any religious scripture I want and who’s to say that the Bible is any less bogus than any other scripture?
Now THERE’S some fodder for shame and embarrassment!
This is why there is always a temptation to add something else to the gospel message. To the natural mind it just seems so flimsy. BUT the Holy Spirit, by the word of God is faithful to awaken an unshakeable belief in this story of good news.
So, to my mind ,one of the elements of the gospel we must add to our definition of gospel is the faithfulness of the Holy Spirit, through the word of God to ignite faith in our faithless hearts.
-trw
Romans10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Great post Tommy. Without the Holy Spirit not only are we robbed of the power to respond to the Gospel, but we can't even understand it. 1 Corinthians 1:18 says "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." What a strange way to bridge the gap between God and man. Also remember that Jesus encouraged His disciples to "deny themselves, pick up thier cross and follow Him". We read this today and it is challenging, but remember to the Jew who was hearing this for the first time, the cross was not a icon of salvation, but a violent tool of Roman oppression. When your teacher makes such outragous public statements, how do you hold your head up high and say aloud ... I'm with him. But like you say Tommy thank God we have the Holy Spirit which brings us to a reality of sorts that is unattainable by any other means.
I’m not sure that I didn’t wait too long to post anything that cannot now be original. I believe you guys covered everything but I know that I won’t get away with a mere “yep, what you said” so I’ll do my best to contribute.
I started out by asking my 10-year old daughter what the Gospel was. She said, “It’s the story of Jesus becoming a man and living on earth and dying for our sins”. I said, “Is that it” and she said, “Is there more?”
Hmm, well put…
The gospel as Andy aptly put is simply The Good News. Not a good news, or some good news it is THE good news or as the word that Andy referred to translates, Good Message and like TRW said, it’s really fairly basic…
Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again
We do a lot in our culture to complicate and analyze it to the nth degree but at the end of the day the gospel is simply the message that:
a. I’m a sinner
b. Christ paid the penalty for my sins through his death on the cross
c. He rose again and is seated at the right hand of God the Father making intercession for me.
d. By trusting in His death for my salvation I am viewed as having His righteousness and the punishment and guilt for my sin is wiped away.
You guys said a lot in your posts that I tend to classify with other areas of study; atonement, redemption and even election. While I think that these are periphery to the Gospel and essential in understanding it completely I’ve tried to answer the question, “What is the Gospel”? as succinctly as possible.
The question is, what do we do with this Good News? Do we congratulate ourselves for having heard it and understood it for ourselves then go about our business? Do we use it to minimize and beat down those who don’t share our faith or to prove they’re wrong and we’re right? Or do we use it as a filter to guide and direct every decision that we make on a day to day basis and love those around us who haven’t yet embraced it.
Along with the message of good news comes a challenge.
Like Andy said: Deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow Jesus. (Mt.16:24;Mk.8:34,Lk.9:23)
To love your neighbor as yourself. (Mk.12:31)
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.(Mt.22:37)
No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.(Lk.16:13)
Love your enemies, do good to them. (Lk.6:35)
Do everything in love. (1Cor16:14)
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. (Mk8:35)
Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. (1 Jn 3:13)
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. (1 Jn 3:16)
If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. (Js. 1:26-27)
We live by faith, not by sight. (2Cor5:7)
Anyone who loves his father and mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. (Mt.10:37-38)
Honor the Sabbath (Ex 20:8-10) This is a personal challenge for me. Not that I have any of the above mastered yet!
Well, uh, right Steve. If ya wanna get all "scriptural" about it...
Just joking.
I think this topic is really beginning to build some momentum. Great posts guys.
And, of course the "good news" (Gospel) is that through the Holy Spirit God has provided the inspiration and power to accomplish all these things. All we must do is make the choice to respond.
Could I respectfully ask what your opinions are on the fact that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are referred to as the gospel accounts while including alot more information than just that the Messiah has come to die for me a sinner. Was it just to add enough information to the story to prove to the reader that Jesus was the Messiah and that he rose from the grave. I ask because when Jesus would heal someone, he would say to them go and sin no more. He did not find it important to say to them what he was going to do later. Is this because the person he healed would find out later? As you interact with me you will find that I have trouble staying focused and go off on tangents. So, please feel free to re-align me as we go.
Chuck, what was the Gospel before Jesus died for our sins and rose again?
Before I reply to Andy let me preface my comments with an apology. As I re-read my post from earlier today I realize that what you all could not have read was my frame of mind and tone of voice. What I wrote may easily be construed as being condescending and patronizing. Please don’t take it that way. My understanding of the gospel (proper) is that it is simple enough for a child to understand it (Mk. 10:15) and that was my point in bringing my daughter into the mix. A poor attempt to illustrate my point.
Now, on to Andy’s question about the pre-Christ nature of the Gospel…
At the heart of the gospel message is God’s eternal, unchangeable sense of justice and holiness. Sin must be punished. It is that fact which made the gospel (atonement) necessary if God desired to save anyone. That sense of justice was present before Christ and in fact is part of God’s nature so it is indeed eternal. So what about Old Testament and pre-cross believers?
Romans 3:25-26 says (speaking of Christ) God displayed [Christ] publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Underlined words are for emphasis)
In other words, God had not forgiven sin and simply brushed aside its punishment. The punishment was retroactive in the sense that Jesus paid the penalty for the sins previously committed for a demonstration of God’s present righteousness. The gospel has been the same from the very beginning as far back as Adam and Eve when in Genesis 3:15 God said, “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel”. This I believe is a foretelling of the coming Christ and His atoning sacrifice.
Also, Old Testament saints could look to passages like Isaiah 53 and numerous other Messianic prophecies (Zechariah, Daniel, Malachi, etc) and put their hope in the Christ who was promised to come. Take a look at Hebrews 11, particularly verse 13. Previously the writer of Hebrews affirms Christ’s place in the Old Testament Scriptures in 10:7. Romans 1:17 says that “the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith as it is written but the righteous man shall live be faith”. Based on those Scriptures I come to the conclusion that the gospel message as we know it today was in existence long prior to Christ’s incarnation and has not changed before or since.
My visual nature sees an hourglass in which the history of human redemption all channels through the middle portion which is Christ’s death on the cross, sins committed previously having been dealt with then, since committed subsequently being dealt with at the same time.
So were there people preaching the Gospel before Jesus' ministry began?
Does Jesus ever tell His diciples to go and tell people that he (Jesus) is the messiah, the Christ. Does He ever tell them to proclaim that His blood would be shed for thier atonement of sin?
Luke 9
Jesus Sends Out the Twelve
1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3He told them: "Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. 4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere.
Yes, the gospel (Christ) was being preached before Jesus’ earthly ministry began. Take a look at some of these Old Testament examples that were all fulfilled by Christ. Watch for the thread of atonement in them. It was those who had faith in the Christ to come who were saved and whose guilt was wiped away retroactively according to Romans 3:25-26. (For the sake of space I won’t type them all in)
• Psalm 22:8,16,18
• Psalm 110:4 – Compare with Hebrews 6:20 and 7:1-3
• Isaiah 7:4
• Isaiah 9:7
• All of Isaiah 53
• Micah 5:2
• Daniel 9:25
• Zech 9:9, 12:10
Each of these (like the less obvious Hosea 11:1 which was fulfilled by Matthew 2:13-15) were fulfilled in the New Testament in the life of Christ. This isn’t an exhaustive list. There are literally hundreds of OT passages that foretell the coming of the Messiah.
I understand about the prophets proclaiming the coming Messiah. I am not questioning that Jesus atonement was foretold. I am not challenging Paul's teaching on the Gospel. I guess I am challenging the notion that Paul's teaching about the Gospel, although completely true, is not a comprehensive treatment of the Gospel. The prophets told of a coming Messiah who would be an atonement for the sin of man and put us in right standing with God once again. The Messiah (as Paul put it) was the second Adam. But, we also see other element that are, in the modern church, almost ignored that I believe are just as much a part of the “good news” as the element of atonement.
Where do I come by this understanding. I look to the words of Jesus and to some degree the words Jesus never said. What did Jesus say? When he began his ministry he linked himself to Isaiah 61.
“Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, 2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor
“
Why did Jesus not refer to those prophecies that talked about atonement instead? Why did he launch on freedom for the captives, the poor, the brokenhearted and release for the prisoners? Some of these can be connected to atonement to be sure. But I think there is more. Right after this Jesus talks about two people who received grace and mercy from God; the woman of Sidon who was saved from starvation and Nahman who was healed from leprosy. Neither of them were Jews, but God feed and healed them. Why would Jesus make such a statement right on the heals of Isaiah 61? I feel it is because the Jews were missing the point. The point was not about who is in and who is out. It is not about getting saved, but about helping others be saved. The point is not the cross, but it is about finding your own cross. If all we do is tell people to stand and gaze at the foot of the cross I think we have missed the point. Jesus demonstrated his love for us. He wants us to do the same. Think about what the world would be like if we all did what Jesus taught and did. Would this not be a world forever changed for the better? If you read the gospel accounts I cannot escape the notion that Jesus meant for us all to be a part of the Gospel. Jesus died for us because we were sinners and rose again after three days. This is true and I am forever grateful and am hopelessly captured by his love for me. He who is forgiven much was loved much. I am loved much and I know that you all are as well. But, now we must do for others what they cannot do for themselves. That may mean feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those in the hospital or sitting quietly, prayerfully with a couple whose son was just shot to death outside his apartment.
Another aspect that compels me to this point of view is what Jesus did not say. I ask myself, if the gospel is really just about 1) I am a sinner 2) Christ died for my sins and 3) he rose again, then would this not be a majority of his communication to His followers? As I review the Gospel accounts I don't see this directly referenced. There are moments where it seems to be alluded to, but not outright. If this was essentially the Gospel message, would not Jesus have actually said it that way? Even after he returns to the disciples after being resurrected (a time when the whole death and resurrection issue was front and center) Jesus talks about making disciples, obeying commands and discusses the Kingdom of God. Nothing about atonement. At this point in the story, Jesus has their attention. Whatever Jesus says at this point is golden. Whatever doubt they had has surely melted away. These 11 (Paul has not yet joined them) go onto establish the church and 10 of them go onto die gruesome deaths for the sake of the message Jesus was talking to them about at this very moment. But, no mention of the blood, no “tell everyone the tomb is empty!”. Why? Because it is not important? No. I believe because it is all part of a larger picture.
Again, I want to be clear. I believe Jesus is the son of God, lived a sinless life, died and rose again after three days. I am not fuzzy on the atonement and its vital role in my life and the lives of countless people over the centuries. But, I think if I look at the life of Jesus I see so much more than just this that Jesus spent his precious time on earth as a man teaching, discussing and demonstrating.
Matthew 25:31-46 (New American Standard Bible)
31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Let me ask another question. If the Gospel is only about the atonement and resurrection, then why spend so much time with communication like Matt 25:31-46. Why not just say something like “Soon I will lay my life down and my blood will be poured out for you and this will cleans your sins. Tell everyone you know of this good news. Proclaim the arrival of the lamb of God!” It seems to me if the Gospel is simply about the atonement and resurrection, this is all Jesus would need to discuss, there would be nothing more to say on the subject. But we all know this is not true. So why are we so resistant to expanding our understanding of what the good news is?
This is good. Their are several things that I woould like to address. TRW, growing up in the socalled church has very little to do with the way that we see the gosple. The first time that I ever met with a room full of drunks There was a strong sence of uncontrolability in the way that they approched life. In that they uderstood that the one thing that controled their life they had no control over. I left that meeting with a lot to think about and one of the conclusions that I came to was that something controled all of our live that we had no control over. It may not be achohol, it may be masterbating in front of a computer screen or lusting after you coworkers job or gambaling or overeating or pride or being selfish. The point is that very few poeple come to the knowledge of their own blackness before a right and holy God. This room full of drunk knows something special in that we only have control to give control to someone or something else. We as followers of Jesus say with our mouth that we believe but very few of us our willing to hang on the cross and sacrifice our will and desire to the will and desire of the Father.
This goes to the dillima that Chucks 10 year old is facing. She has not had any time to live out her story of the good news in her life. I would be the first to say that the message of the gosple is a very simple message but it is with much nashing of teeth that we crawl up on the alter and live in the will of the father. The HS does a fine job of guiding only if we let him
In John 6:43-60 we find that we take Jesus into us to know the will of the father. We make him our bread of life. And it says that many left because thay could not understand what he was saying. Peter says that thay cannot leave because Jesus holds the words of life. O that we would be so compelled.
Please understand that what I say I say in love. But the human condition is the same for all people, drunks or life long churchers. The gosple is a verb. It is the same thing that God gave to Adam and Eve and since that time God has knowen that he was going to have to make a way for the creation that he loves.
Have at me
Tom, thanks for the invitation to “Have at you” but it seems to imply that instead of simply posting my thoughts on Romans 1:16, I was REALLY trying to single-handedly dismantle your entire view of Christians, drunks, church, and the world.
O, if I were only that clever...
Good thoughts, Tom.
-trw
What is a “socalled church”? I don't know if “we” means you have a mouse in your pocket, but everyone I know has a view of the gospel (right or wrong) that comes primarily from the church. In one statement you say that your drunk friends had no control over what controlled them. Then you say you can control what controls you. Which is it? I am confused. Unless you know something the rest of us don't, I cannot say based on what Chuck shared that his daughter is facing a “dilemma”. Characterizing your walk with God as “nashing of teeth that we crawl up on the alter and live in the will of the father” does not sound like good news to me. Jesus said (Matt 11:29) “my yoke is easy, my burden is light”. Please elaborate on this Gospel that involves gnashing of teeth. My view of the gospel always had this reserved for those who did NOT repent and accept the Gospel. But I am ready to learn.
Can you please provide the scripture reference for this statement “Peter says that thay cannot leave because Jesus holds the words of life. O that we would be so compelled.”
Where do you find support in the text for the good news being a verb?
What did God give to Adam and Eve? The Gospel? Please clarify this statement.
The only statement that you made that I can agree with is that “The HS does a fine job of guiding only if we let him”. I might add that the Holy Spirit does a fine job even when we don't let Him. Thankfully the Holy Spirit is not limited by my actions. If he can speak through a donkey, then he really does not need my help.
Not sure what “have at me” means within the scope of understanding God on a deeper level. Please elaborate on how this relates to the question at hand “What is the Gospel?”. Please provide scripture references to back up the more unconventional points of view.
By the way, I really like how you worked masturbation into a discussion of the Gospel.
I may be getting off the subject but …. The gospel, I think we all agree on, is that Jesus died for our sins on the cross. But my thoughts went to Matthew 19:16-26. The rich young man story we all have read. The young man says he has kept the commandments Jesus lined out. The young man then asked “What do I still lack? (Verse 20) Jesus then answers “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Verse 21) Jesus then explains to his disciples, after the young man sadly went away, that is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (Verses 23-24) Verse 25, the disciples asked “Who then can be saved?” Verse 26, Jesus says “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
I am not trying to wear out this question “What is the Gospel?” I am still curious why Jesus would let this rich young man walk away without explaining the gospel to him. At least the basic essentials that we have discussed and agree are vital parts of the gospel. Something could have been said like.. “Young man you can’t be perfect. You need to believe in a messiah that will take the place of your sin for you to receive eternal life.” In verse 16, the question the rich young man started with was “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
This story to me leans toward the scripture I had mentioned in an earlier post, Lk. 16:13 about not being able to serve both God and Money. Does this rich young man story imply that I have to add something else to the gospel points?
1. I am a sinner
2. Christ paid for the sin of the world through His death on the cross.
3. He rose again seated at the right hand of God making intercession for me.
4. By trusting in His death for my salvation, I am viewed as having His righteousness and the punishment and guilt for my sin will be wiped away.
Maybe this story is an election topic of what I would choose to do after accepting the gospel. As I read the words of Jesus I feel there is more to understand about the gospel. This man asked how to get eternal life and the good news was never mentioned to him. Was Jesus saying that it was impossible for this person to accept the gospel (1.-2.-3.-4.) without facing the need to not have faith in his wealth and have faith in the messiah he already knew was promised in the Old Testament?
I also think it important that we notice Jesus says in this story “Follow Me”. Is this not translated today that we need to make Jesus the Lord of our lives? Should that not be part of the gospel?
I am really enjoying our conversation. I find myself studying the topic and looking forward to hearing from each of you.
“The gospel, I think we all agree on, is that Jesus died for our sins on the cross.” I am not ready to concede that this is “the gospel”. I think it is a vital component of the Gospel, but not a complete picture.
“I am still curious why Jesus would let this rich young man walk away without explaining the gospel to him.” If you read the account carefully you will see (in my opinion) that He does. Matt 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." From my point of view this is also a vital component of the Gospel and it is also the component of the good news that Jesus speaks of most often. Remember in a previous post I made the assertion that I believe a major part of the good news is that we each find our own cross. It is only when we deny ourselves, pick up our cross that we can follow Him. When we all join together under the guidance and power of the holy Spirit and walk in obedience and faith that the world will begin to be restored, redeemed and healed. To me this is good news. But it requires we let go of what we want and subordinate ourselves to what God wants.
“Does this rich young man story imply that I have to add something else to the gospel points?” If by the Gospel points you mean those Paul set forth in 1 Corinthians 15:3-6 then, yes I believe there is ample support in the gospel text for an expanded understanding of the Gospel. The passage you have pointed out is a good case. Jesus follows this encounter with a parable about the Kingdom of God (the laborers in the vineyard). Based largely, in my opinion, on this encounter with the rich young ruler, Jesus breaks down the doctrine of retribution which says that if I have wealth and power, I am blessed of God and if I am in need, sick, hungry or naked, I must have sinned and made God mad and I am cursed. Remember the man born blind at birth. Remember Jesus talking about those slaughtered at the alter and those killed by a tower that fell on them. Jesus railed against those who were tempted to judge their misfortune as God's judgment. This, I believe, is also a part of the good news. There is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus our Lord. What you have does not belong to you and is to be used to build the Kingdom of God not feather our nests. This is great news to people in need. This is not so great news for those who have trouble letting go of what God has entrusted to them, but only because they worship wealth as an idle, not because God is a harsh task master. Jim Elliot said “it is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain something he cannot loose.”
“Was Jesus saying that it was impossible for this person to accept the gospel (1.-2.-3.-4.) without facing the need to not have faith in his wealth and have faith in the messiah he already knew was promised in the Old Testament?” No, I think Jesus was saying find your cross.
Maybe this is a good time to reveal my definition of the Gospel.
I believe the good news is that Jesus came to tell us how we could join together to bring healing and restoration to a broken world (shalom). This is done by self denial for the purpose of promoting the welfare of others. To make his point, Jesus gave his life and shed His blood for the remission of our sins. It was something we needed and we could not achieve on our own without Jesus. He laid His life down so I could have a restored relationship with God. In turn, Jesus wants us to find our own cross and bear it with the same joy that He bore His.
Of course, we are not going to shed blood for the remission of anyones sin, but we have been gifted to provide something for someone. Jesus said the two greatest commandments upon which are based the law and the prophets was love God and Love others. I don't think it is a great stretch to paraphrase this as love God by finding your cross and doing as Jesus has done for you, for others. The good news is that healing and restoration will come if we all do this. The Holy Spirit is beaconing us to it. All we lack is obedience and selfishness to follow. Just like the rich young ruler.
I think if you will re-read the gospel with this idea of the gospel in mind it makes much more sense.
Here is an interesting passage I ran across as I was reviewing the Gospels for more insight into this question we are chewing on.
Mark 8:34-38 34Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? 37Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."
This is a familiar passage (we have referenced it in this thread a few times. But I want to direct you to the line that reads “whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it”. If the Gospel is, as some have asserted, simply about Jesus dying for our sins and rising from the the dead. That Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, then why would Jesus separate himself from the Gospel in this sentence? It seems to support my point of view that what Jesus did on the cross was an example of the Gospel being lived out, not the whole Gospel itself. The Gospel seems to be about all of us giving our life to help others. The Gospel about repenting from our selfish ways and turning to a life of self denial. The Gospel seems to be about finding your own cross (Mark 8:34)
Andy,
Like you and others, I have never believed that Paul’s I Corinthians 15:1-5 outline of the gospel was “the ENTIRE gospel” but merely one of many facets of the gospel. So, as I’ve kept up with this blog, it has not been a stretch for me to study out, Tom’s, Steve’s, Chuck’s and your thoughts on this topic and incorporate much of them into my own expanding definition of the gospel.
However, I am almost ashamed to say, I have read that passage in you mentioned in Mark 8 many times (it is one of my favorites) but have never focused on the phrase “and for the gospel”. I’ve always focused on the
‘putting aside selfish ambition’,
‘enduring hardships’ and
‘walking according to the precepts of the yoke of Christ’ aspects of the passage. But that one phrase has never jumped out to me like it did this evening. I really want to spend time personally meditating on that.
I will always be amazed at how the word of God continually presents itself anew—I may not be able to add that to my definition of gospel but it is truly good news to me.
-trw
Here is another angle on the Gospel as I am coming to understand it...
There are two icons that seen to repeat in Jesus teaching; the cross and self denial (or death).
I believe that death is an expression of self denial. Sometimes it represents physical death. Other times it represents the denial of self. "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:13 To lay ones life down means to promote the welfare of other above one own desires or even one own needs.
I believe that the cross is an expression or icon of outrageous cost. The cross represents a price that was paid at such a high price (Jesus was God's only son, he was violently beaten and he was nailed to a tool of Roman oppression where criminals were executed) that, to the logical mind makes no sense given the benefit (or lack thereof) to be gained. Read Matthew 26:6-13. The cross for you and me can be any expression of faith through love (Gal 5:6) that goes beyond reason. When you die on your cross, people should say “why are you doing this?”
So here is how I see it breaking down...
1) Jesus' had the ultimate expression of the Gospel on the cross.
2) Jesus' expression of the Gospel is of paramount importance to me personally.
3) My expression of the Gospel is of paramount importance to God and Jesus. (Matthew 25:31-46)
Is it reasonable to assert that, as important as Jesus death on the cross is to me personally, that my death on my cross is as important to Him?
One more note on the Gospel. As I read Galatians another facet of the good news begins to take shape. If the evil heart of man desires to be justified by the law, then when the law of the spirit of God replaces the law of sin and death, I can now follow a living law that already has the curse of the law of sin and death nullified by Christ's work on the cross. This is also good news. There is now a law that I can follow and give my life to and live up to. The law of the spirit draws me to obedience and the power that raised Christ from the dead can enable me to obedience if I surrender to it.
The law of Moses was meant to be a reflection of our need for Jesus. It was never meant to be lived up to, but to reveal our need and depravity. The Holy Spirit is that piece of the puzzle that makes the reflection look right. When we look at ourselves through the law of the spirit we should see Jesus. More good news!
Guys, please forgive my absence. I’ve been slammed the last several days and have fallen pretty far behind you all. Please allow me to try to touch on some of your major points before you move on. Also a heads up for this week, I’m leaving town Tuesday evening and won’t be back until Saturday night. I have no expectation that I’ll have internet access or if I do that I’ll be able to devote much time to this.
Now on to business…
To be sure Jesus was very concerned with the marginalized, the imprisoned, weak and helpless (James 1:27 is a personal favorite example) and yes Andy I believe you are correct in that if all we do is point people to the cross and say, “there you go, go get your salvation” and not include fulfillment of our cultural mandate to care for “the least of these” we have indeed missed the point.
Rather than saying though, “the point is not the cross, but it is about finding your own cross” I might say, the point is not JUST the cross because I believe that the cross is still central to any good that we do as followers of Christ, be it feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc…
Andy in response to your last paragraph on May 16th, I don’t think it would have been consistent with much of Jesus’ teaching to have spelled out for His followers everything that was about to happen or did happen with His life. (And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
“But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. “For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matt. 13:10-17)
In the same way that He spoke in parables rather than coming right out and “saying it plainly” He required His hearers to use discernment and exercise faith. What faith would have been required if He had gathered His followers and said, “ok guys, here’s the deal... In a couple of days Judas is going to betray me, they’re going to put me through a kangaroo court, I’m going to be crucified but don’t worry, in three days I’ll rise and in fact I’ll come see you just so you know that everything’s okay again”.
Steve, Jesus knew the condition of the rich young ruler’s heart, (John 2:24, 4:1, 6:64, 16:19) and was under no obligation to explain things further, (after all, it’s His story). And so His response to him was as much for him as it was for us. It gives us the opportunity to expound on the story by teaching that if there is anything in your life that you can’t give up for the sake of Christ, you can’t really be fully His. You mentioned Lk 16:13 and that is just the point. You cannot serve Jesus and any other master. (Lk. 9:23)
Finally, I’m not sure that everything that Christ taught or every spiritual mandate that we have as believers should be classified as The Gospel. I’m not saying that it shouldn’t either. This may come down to personal preference/conviction/thought process and I’m not sure that we aren’t moving into the territory of splitting hairs over it. And in spite of my previous definition of the gospel I don’t find anywhere in Scripture where the gospel is defined as “A…B…C” or defined any other way for that matter. Perhaps it’s just my personal definition of the gospel that is simply the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ while I tend to classify other things according to their most natural fit in doctrinal or theological thought or study.
On the other hand, perhaps it’s reasonable, (and maybe probable since there is no explicit definition of the gospel in the Bible) that we would wrestle with the definition of the gospel until the cows come home.
Chuck said “I might say, the point is not JUST the cross...”. Good point Chuck an unfortunate wording on my part I agree.
Chuck said “I’m not sure that everything that Christ taught or every spiritual mandate that we have as believers should be classified as The Gospel.” I can only speak from my personal point of view, but I am only looking to what Jesus taught and did as being a part of the Gospel of Christ. Other spiritual mandates issued by the apostles I do not consider a part of the Gospel. If you feel that some of the things Jesus taught or did should not be considered as a part of the Gospel, can you please elaborate?
Chuck said “I don’t find anywhere in Scripture where the gospel is defined as “A…B…C” I think we are (at least I know I am) getting this from I Corinthians 15:3-6.
Chuck can you express your personal definition of the Gospel? It may have been woven into your posts but I would be interested in getting your succinct your read on this.
I have been watching for the cows. None spotted yet. We are good to go for now.
i Cor 15:3-6 has been mentioned as the gospel. Verse 2 says By this gospel YOU ARE SAVED, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
In the story of the rich young ruler, again I will point out that he clearly asks what good thing HE MUST DO to get ETERNAL LIFE. What is verse 2 speaking of when Paul says YOU ARE SAVED? Believing Christ died for his (young ruler) sins, He was buried and rose from the grave on the third day. Can you not believe that and be rich? What drives people to take a vow of poverty?
I realize this man has a hang up with his money. But when I accepted the above information about the death, burial, and resurrection and asked Jesus into my life, I had and still have a laundry list of hang ups.
I was also wondering what everyones thoughts were on Tom's very first post on this topic???
I had a few typing errors...
1 Cor 15:3-6 mainly. And a few others.
Steve wrote "Can you not believe that and be rich? What drives people to take a vow of poverty?"
Rich people can be saved, but many look to thier wealth as thier God. The rich young ruler had to make a choice and he chose his wealth. The point is not that his wealth kept him from a relationship with God, but that his unwillingness to release his wealth for the sake of a relationship with God and others was going to condemn him.
The rich young ruler is not really a study of salvation as much as it is a picture of the depravity of man.
I have never taken a vow of poverty nor do I know anyone who has.
Steve wrote: "What is verse 2 speaking of when Paul says YOU ARE SAVED?" This sounds like another topic for another thread. Are we ready to move on?
Andy wrote, The Gospel seems to be about finding your own cross (Mark 8:34)
I’ve thought a lot about this statement, and the phrase
“finding your own”
doesn’t sit quite right with me.
I think I understand what you mean by that but let me clarify what I hope you mean. You can correct me if need be.
NOT JUST ANY OL’ CROSS WILL DO…
First, you mentioned actually laying down our life for a friend (real death). We should be willing to do such a thing but it is highly unlikely we’ll ever be called on to do it.
Secondly, you mentioned acts of self-denial. Now this is more to the point of where we live each day. BUT not just any ol’ act of self-denial qualifies.
For example, giving up a second helping of my wife’s lasagna when I already know it is going cause me horrible pain and weight gain is an act of self denial of mammoth proportions but it doesn’t qualify. Or mowing the lawn is a real pain and a chore I simply hate. To deny my own selfish desire of remaining in the house under the a/c and reading a good book instead is a tremendous act of self-denial but on that final day will be burned up like so much wood, hay and stubble.
Part of the good news is that we have become a new species with the ABILITY (but not always the WILL) to live according to the spirit and not the flesh. The Bible directs us as to how we are to achieve this spirit life. Many things Jesus tells me to do or not do are easy for me. BUT some are NOT EASY AT ALL. Those things are my cross.
So, I hope your point was that the ROMAN CROSS was an instrument used to put do death our Lord. OUR CROSS (that can only be discovered by reading and reflecting on God’s word) is the instrument used to put to death our flesh so that we may more fully live according to the spirit of Him who died for us.
Is this close to what you meant?
-trw
That is not close, it is EXACTLY what I meant.
Hey guys,
TRW sorry about my lack of humility in my last post.please forgive me.
Tom, You're kidding, right? No offense taken. I look forward to hearing more form you.
I've been out of town for a few days and thought I'd have a lot of posts to catch up on. Where is everybody?
-trw
I have spent time reading and re-reading the posts so far on the “Gospel” topic. One thing sticks out to me for certain. Tom Sheets and I are probably not the most gifted at communicating in written text. I have annoyed Andy over the years with negative comments about my own intelligence, so please do not take what I have said to be that.
I have tried to give some time for Tom to respond to the questions asked about his posts on the blog. I have read everyone’s scripture references and also opinions. I want to now give my opinion of what I think Tom was trying to say.
Make no bones about it. Tom and I both have struggled with our thoughts on what today’s version of the gathering of believers has become. I am sure if you were being honest, you would admit you have had some thoughts of your own. When I read Acts chapter 2, I see a group of people who gathered in such a caring fellowship that I think has lost something along the way. But, as one put it “She may have black eye and her dress may be torn, but she is still the Bride of Christ.” For me personally, I have an unrealistic expectation of what the church should be. But I can’t help feeling the way I do sometimes and need to immediately take it to God. With Andy’s help over the past few years I have been able to accept, (while not all the time) peoples “as is” tag we all have. We are all broken people. Because I know Tom, I can read past his written text of the “So called “ church.
Tom’s experience with people who have a drinking problem as the way I understood it, made me think of my experiences with people who have a drinking problem or any other chemical addiction. I have talked with guys that feel like the addiction has control over them, and to them, this is reality. I think what was being said is they (like me) have the choice to give the control to the One who IS in control. To go to this God who is sovereign and who loves them (me). The gospel is great news to this person whether they were raised in church or not. Drinking or chemical addiction is not the only sin wiped away by Jesus’ death on the cross. Adultery, murder, lying, and masturbating while lusting over pornography on the internet are all washed away in forgiveness the way I understand the bible. The church I go to very seldom talks about the really uncomfortable sins. We just talk about pride and forgiveness and such. One time, while in my bible fellowship, I challenged the men in the class to get an accountability partner in their life. I told them whether the person in my life and I discussed every time we met, I struggled with looking at women (not that the women today are helping us with the way they dress) but having that guy in my life somehow comes to mind when the urge is present. The guys in the room glared at me with betrayal. Hey dude, that is our secret. To the person that truly wants peace in their life hearing the gospel, knowing that EVERY SIN is washed away and that they can look to the creator and the One who controls the world we live in is good news.
Luke 18:17 – I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it. I hope we would never disagree with the words of Jesus. The gospel as we have discussed in 1 Cor 15 should be easy to understand. My opinion is that to a child, if explained what the kingdom of God is like, would be puzzled that there would be any other way to live than the definition of the kingdom. But as we all get older and learn about our sin condition, to me (maybe I am wrong) the gospel has more depth and meaning. This kingdom Jesus speaks of becomes something to be longed for and desired. I disagree with it being a dilemma for Chuck’s daughter. But, I do think as she, along with our children’s understanding of the depth of the gospel will grow like ours is growing as we discuss.
I can some up the “nashing of teeth” with this, a friend of mine has said “The problem with a living sacrifice is he is always crawling off the alter.”
John 6 is an interesting chapter full of all kinds of topics I’m sure. I can’t say that I can comment on this text mentioned (vs.43-60) because there is probably OT scripture Jesus may be referring too. But, as Chuck has told me, this was written to a bunch of farmers… In Ex 4:14-16 It is being explained to Moses that God will provide words to speak and teach them what to do. In John 6:40 Jesus says: For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. That sounds like good news. 43-60 Jesus talks of the Father drawing him (me,you) everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me(Jesus). Jesus then explains His flesh is the bread of life which will be given for the world. He (Jesus) then speaks of them eating his flesh. Vs. 60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” Vs. 66 many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed Him. Vs. 68 Peter tells Jesus “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” I thought Tom was saying that this would be hard for a child to comprehend.
I had said in an earlier post that I felt the Gospel meant something a little different to the audience of the good news. Is the gospel an action word? (I cheated through English class) maybe not. I do think it is a “good news” that is continually moving with God’s story that we all are a part of and was a promise in the Old Testament.
Finally I would encourage us to take in what has been said as each comment is posted. Pray through our thoughts on what is said. And give grace as we read and respond.
The Gospel is a story to be sure. But when I consider the question “What is the Gospel?” I must wonder what kind of a story is the Gospel? There are billions of stories in the world. Some, probably most, are not Gospel stories. So, what kind of a story is a Gospel story?
The story of my salvation?
The death of 50,000 people in an earth quake in China?
The story of Jesus the Christ?
The story of Lindsy Lohan's latest attempt at rehab?
Who won American Idle?
How a drug addict got free of drugs?
How a family broken down on the side of the road was saved by a good Samaritan?
Some of these stories ring as “good news”, the Gospel if you will, and some do not. What makes a story a Gospel story? To me, this is what this whole topic has been about. To me a story of the Good News of Jesus or the Gospel of the Kingdom of God has certain attributes, that when we understand them, we have a more profound sense of what Jesus was trying to teach us and will affect how we view this present world.
1 Cor 15:3-6 – I think (my opinion) is Paul's attempt to try to define some of the major attributes of a Gospel story. Could you operate solely on what Paul said in 1 Cor 15. Absolutely. Is what Paul had to say on the subject everything that could be said? I don't think so. How do I know? When I read the Gospel accounts as a blueprint for a Gospel story, I see many more facets to a Gospel story than just the details of the death and resurrection of our Saviour. The Gospel accounts are filled with acts of grace, mercy, sacrificial love and long suffering. If it was just a case of Jesus doing these things, I would have to say that maybe 1 Cor 15 says it all. But, where it gets deeper for me is that Jesus many times calls us into His story. This is where, for me, the Gospel gets more personal. Of course it was already personal as Jesus redeemed me. But I don't see the personal aspect of this story ending there. When my Saviour asks me to pick up a cross, it thrusts ME into the Gospel story with Jesus. So now, it is not just a story about what Jesus did for me, but also about what I am going to do for others.. Now, to me, an attribute that makes a story a Gospel story is one where people, moved by the spirit of Jesus that resides in them, do acts of service as an expression of their faith and love for their Saviour. These are not just any acts of service, but acts which bring the same redemption, healing and restoration that Jesus brought to us. Different acts, but on a smaller scale of significance from Jesus, just as redemptive and restorative. Jesus called us to do what he did. Jesus did what he saw the father do. And, we are called to do what Jesus does.
The Gospel is a story. A story that represents the redemptive powers of Jesus on the cross and the resurrection, but also those same powers at work in the lives of those bought by the blood toward anyone else.
By the way, any of those stories listed above that are not Gospel stories can be changed into Gospel stories by introducing Jesus directly or through another believer. All stories are either Gospel stories or stories waiting to be redeemed.
Well seid Steve.
Although I still believe that the child has exposure to some thing that they have no knowlegde of, let me explain.
When Jesus found John the baptist and insisted that he be baptize this was not when he was 10years old. It was when he was 30. We can get into a discussion about the age of acountablity but I have to believe that there is signifigance to this. This, in my view, is the man Jesus saying that he no long wants to be Jesus of nazerath but Jesus the son of God. It is a public acknowledgement of his own flesh and a desire to become the insterment of salvation that the father desired for him to be. If we believe that Jesus is fully man and fully God then we have to say that the man side had to be realized. And the gospel that the people in the desert heard is the same gosple that Jesus intered into. Hebrews 4:1-6.
NOT ALL GOOD NEWS IS THE GOSPEL
After three weeks of reading you guy’s entries and trying to clarify in my mind “WHAT IS THE GOSPEL” I think I’ve made "some" headway.
Probably the most effective thing I’ve done is develop a base-line for determining what elements can be included in THE GOSPEL and what elements should not be included.
The base-line goes something like this…
God created mankind to live in relation with Him.
Because of sin, that relationship was destroyed.
A plan that would reunite Him with mankind was needed.
Therefore,
THE GOSPEL can only be defined as
THOSE THINGS GOD DID THROUGH JESUS AND THOSE THINGS JESUS DID IN OBEDIENCE TO GOD THAT REMOVED THE SIN BARRIER AND MADE POSSIBLE THE REUNION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN.
Jesus gave a big nod to what this GOSPEL plan was and what it would look like when he compared his death burial and resurrection to the destruction and reconstruction of the temple. Then, some years later, in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul declares this to be the case when he gives us his bare bones definition of THE GOSPEL:
1 Christ died for our sins
2 He was buried
3 He rose again
Any other element in the Bible we can look at may be “good news” but may not necessarily be THE GOSPEL.
For example,
Jesus turned the water into wine
Jesus walked on the water
Jesus healed 10 lepers
Jesus cleared the temple
Jesus fed the 5000
Jesus’ disciples did miracles
Jesus’ disciples planted churches
Jesus’ disciples preached THE GOSPEL
Jesus’ disciples suffered torture and became martyrs because of THE GOSPEL.
Each of these things are good news.
All of these things are miraculous.
All of these things helped people.
All of these things pointed people to God, helped people believe that Jesus was the Son of God or demeonstrated the power of God BUT none of these things (as good as they are) ever did ANYTHING to ERASE THE SIN BARRIER BETWEEN GOD AND MANKIND.
Therefore, they are not THE GOSPEL.
Nothing but the death, burial and resurrection of Christ made the reunion between God and mankind possible. THAT is THE GOSPEL.
So, am I saying, (just to mention a few other examples) that what the Bible says about justification, sanctification, redemption, substitution, atonement or God’s grace have no part in the definition of THE GOSPEL? No, of course not! These things connect DIRECTLY to Paul’s bare bones definition in that they would have been meaningless actions and empty ideals otherwise.
So, I’m not one of those people who define THE GOSPEL as DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION period…end of subject. That would be silly and willfully ignorant of much of the Old Testament as well as the New. But it would be even sillier to expand the definition to include elements that cannot be directly connected to His death, burial and resurrection.
Finally, for me, as I pick up and study various elements as to whether they may or may not be included in the definition of THE GOSPEL, my challenge is to relentlessly ask myself,
“Is this element something God or Jesus did to bring about the reunion of God and mankind or is this simply a RESULT of that reunion?"
If the element being studied is something God or Jesus did it, it is likely but not garunteed to be THE GOSPEL.
But it is something you or I did it, it is simply a result or fruit of THE GOSPEL but not THE GOSPEL itself.
I realize there are possibly many holes in my thinking. That’s what happens when you try to lay out something as big as this topic in a few quick paragraphs. So, I welcome anyone of you guys to point the holes out to me. It would be helpful. However, if I don’t reply immediately it’s not because I’m upset or offended—I’m just thinking.
People who know me, know that I have no problem owning up to a mistake but only after I’m thoroughly convinced I’ve made one.
-trw
How do you reconcile the idea that 1 Cor 15 is the Gospel with passages like Luke 9:1-6 where Jesus instructs the disciples to “preach the kingdom of God” and the in turn “preach the gospel”? It seems to me that they either were disobeying Jesus, they did not understand his instructions or the kingdom and the gospel are the same thing. If the kingdom and the gospel are the same, then by your line of thinking the only thing they would have been preaching is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Your thoughts?
Luke 9:1-6
Jesus Sends Out the Twelve
1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3He told them: "Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. 4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere.
Andy, I am not sure that any reconciliation **needs** to be made—their only similarity is that they were both good news.
The bottom line is that the message of the kingdom was most definitely good news for the Jews. However, the problem is that it in no way removed the sin problem between God and mankind **that was never it’s purpose**– therefore, it is not directly connected to THE GOSPEL which Jesus commanded the disciple to preach at His ascention (which was to EVERY creature, not just the Jews) and which Peter preached on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) and which Paul preached to the Gentiles and any Jew who was even a little open to the message.
At any rate,
Several things jump out at me. Other than the differences you bring up about the message of the kingdom and the preaching of the gospel, there are at least 3 more differences between Luke 9 and I Corintians 15 that need to be addressed.
FIRST, THE TIMELINES ARE DIFFERENT
The sending out of the 12 was before Christ’s DB&R
Paul’s statement was looking back to Christ’s DB&R
SECOND, THE AUDIENCES WERE DIFFERENT
In Luke, Jesus sent his disciples out to speak to the Jews (any Gentile that was preached to was not the norm.)
To the Corinthians and in his other letters, Paul was speaking primarily to Gentiles.
THIRD, THE MESSAGES WERE DIFFERENT
In Luke, The Gospel of the Kingdom is the Good news of God’s redemption of the JEWISH NATION.
In I Cor. 15 The message of Christ’s DB&R is the Gospel of God’s redemption of MANKIND.
Prior to the DB&R of Christ, the Jews were looking for a Messiah, a king and an earthly kingdom.
At that time in history, the Gentiles were simply clueless, they weren’t looking for any of those things and had no real understanding that they needed a Savior of any kind. (Eph. 2:12, etc.)
In Luke 9, Jesus instructed his disciples to preach the kingdom because this was God’s story of redemption that directly concerned the audience to whom they were being sent--the Jews as a nation. To those Jews who believed it and preached it, it was no doubt good news but it was not THE GOSPEL Message of God’s redemption of both Jews and Gentiles (mankind). It would not have been possible to preach THAT message for another 3 years. But as soon as Christ’s DB&R was accomplished, that is exactly what the disciples preached.
Now, everything I’ve just written are just hastily typed notes and will surely need some refinement which I will meditate on and work up for a future post.
But let me ask you something,
From the Luke 9 passage, you led me to believe that you have concluded that the message of the kingdom and the message of The gospel of God’s reunion with mankind are the same thing because the word “gospel” was used. If that is what you meant, how do you reconcile the differing thrusts of the two messages?
-trw
The basic message of the Gospel is REDEMPTION BY GRACE. Redemption by grace is good news, it is essentially the good news of the Gospel message.
I believe the Gospel is a single message with two main veins, or two sides of the same redemption coin. I believe this because Jesus referred to the “Gospel of the Kingdom”. He also spent a great deal of time explaining the “Kingdom of God” that this vein of the Gospel is composed of. I am not taking a single statement and blowing it up into a big deal. Jesus clearly made a big deal out of the Gospel of the Kingdom. He spoke of the Kingdom of God many times, and he referred to it as the Gospel of the Kingdom many times. Then, we have Paul who talks about the Gospel in the other main vein as the Gospel of Christ. He defined this vein of the Gospel as roughly the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for the propitiation of the sin of mankind. Since I am assuming we all subscribe to the inerrantcy of scripture (the bible contains no errors), and Paul warns that there is only one Gospel, then both veins MUST be part of a complete Gospel picture.
The Gospel is about redemption by grace. The redemption of God to mankind (the Gospel of Christ) and the redemption of mankind to each other (the Gospel of the Kingdom). I believe Jesus alluded to this when he was asked what is the greatest commandment (Matt 22:34-40). His answer was a two part answer, to love God and love others. John chapter 14 is loaded with this idea of us loving each other. Jesus time and time again connects HIS PASSION to OUR LOVE for one another. It may seem like I am trivializing the cross of Jesus by suggesting that we must find our own cross and I admit it does seem to take away from the cross of Jesus by suggesting that we all take up our cross. But it is not me at all suggesting that but Jesus himself (Matt 10:38 & Matt 16:24). It is Jesus that pulls me (and you) into the Gospel. It is Jesus who puts you and me on a cross. This emphasizes the importance of not only Jesus' cross, but yours and mine. As important as Jesus death on the cross is to me personally, my (and your) death on our cross is every bit as important to Jesus and the Father. Therefore, the redemption of the Gospel is two sided. One side redeems God and mankind and the other side redeems mankind with each other (i.e. our neighbor) but ALWAYS about redemption by grace. I believe that both James and Paul understood this. This understanding of the Gospel makes it easier to understand some of the more troubling passages of the New Testament. Paul says salvation comes by the grace of God and not works (Rom 11:6). But James says (James 2:17) faith without works is dead and such a faith will not save a man. I believe Paul was speaking of the redemption between God and man and I believe James was speaking of the redemption of mankind with each other. Man has grace (unmerited favor) on other men to bring about redemption.
Why did Jesus talk about the Gospel of Kingdom and Paul talk about the Gospel of Christ? If you look closely Jesus DOES speak of the redemption of God to man many times (although he never uses those words), but mostly His message was about the redemption of mankind with each other. Paul also speaks of the redemption of man to each other (although he never uses those words).
So why don't they speak the same message at the same time? I think you have to consider the circumstance that each were faced with at the time they were ministering.
Jesus:
His audience was Jewish. They wanted desperately for the Messiah to come, mostly because they believed that the Messiah would throw off oppressive Roman rule and allow the Jews to live in peace autonomously. They were under various impressions of how to bring the Messiah. Most of these tactics involved, ironically enough, oppressive religious rule of one form or another (Zealots, Pharisees, Sadducee, and Essenes). Jesus would, by the end of His life as a man, fulfill the Messianic prophecy that would redeem God and man. But, God wanted the Jews, His chosen people, to be the light of the world. But what Jesus encountered was far from it. While he walked this earth as a man Jesus addressed many of those troubling issues. Hence, Jesus taught at length about the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. Another issue was the fact that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus had not yet occurred. So, the Gospel of Christ was still being played out and had not yet been finished.
Paul:
His audience is both Jewish and Gentile. Now these people were being presented the Gospel of Christ. The problem is that many Jews (the Judaizers) believed that to be a Christian one must first be a “good Jew”. This was not just a perversion of the Gospel it was a total miss as far as redemption by grace is considered. To a group like the Jews who have lived their whole life by the rule of law, the rule of the spirit is a tough transition. But a necessary one for the full message of the Gospel to be received. After all if you cannot grasp redemption of God to man by grace, then you have no hope of understanding this same redemption by grace applied from one person to another. Paul does speak of our relationship with each other (Phil 2:4-8) as tightly linked to our redemption with God all through his writings to the Jews and the gentiles.
So in conclusion, the Gospel is about redemption by grace. Redemption between God and mankind and redemption between man and each other. One message, two facets. Delivered by different people at different times to address different needs at those times.
I want to make a motion that we change the topic. I suggest the new topic be "If, as Paul says, salvation is by grace and not works (Eph 2:8-9), then how does this square with what James says about faith being dead without works (Jas 2:14-20)?".
If you have another idea for a new thread, post it here and I will start the thread.
DON'T COMMENT ON MY SUGGESTED TOPIC. This is just to pick a topic. I will start a new thread once we decide on a new topic.
OR, we could keep talking about this one. Your choice.
Hello everybody. I am willing to continue our current topic: WHAT IS THE GOSPEL but it seems to have dried up.
If that is the case, I gladly second the motion to change the topic to Paul and James' comments on grace and works and the part each plays in salvation.
-trw
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